Transparency Watch (TW): 2008 was the 60th anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. As former UN High Commissioner for Human Rights do you view corruption as a threat to this vision?

Mary Robinson (MR): Very much so. I was very keen to ensure that we made good links during the anniversary year with the many chapters of Transparency International that are tackling corruption and people on the ground who are addressing violations of human rights as there is a real overlap.

When we launched the Elders campaign Every Human Has RightsCobus de Swardt [managing director of Transparency International] came to Cape Town for it. Huguette Labelle [chair of Transparency International] and myself are members of the board of the UN Global Compact and so we also worked in that framework to encourage more linking between human rights and corruption advocates because corruption leads to huge violations of human rights.

TW: The Elders has a mission to “support courage where there is fear, foster agreement where there is conflict, and inspire hope where there is despair”, do you have any plans to tackle the hurdle represented by corruption?

MR: I think we would see it as being implicit in our approach of being humble. That is how Nelson Mandela wonderfully instructed us at our first meeting. He said to be humble and reach out and listen to those on the margins who feel invisible, isolated and voiceless in society and who are victims of corruption. These are the people who need to have a voice and be understood. These very people who suffer from corruption, whether it is corruption in the health service, corruption in the police, or corruption in governments of rich countries with large poor populations because the resources are being siphoned away. So I feel we have very strong encouragement to speak out against corruption and The Elders intend to be good strong moral voices on all of these issues.

TW: Realizing Rights: The Ethical Globalization Initiative strives to ensure that the needs of the poorest and most vulnerable are addressed on the global stage. Do you think the international community is responding adequately?

MR: We are path finding to a certain extent on how to link human rights principles and approaches more directly to a range of global challenges. For example, I am very encouraged by what we are doing in the area of health and I was glad to do a foreword for a Transparency International report on health and corruption a couple of years ago. In developing countries it is realised more and more that in practical terms the right to health means a right to a functioning basic health system, but because of structural adjustment funds, corruption and lots of other reasons many countries do not have a functioning health system. Health is currently the privilege of the elite and in rural areas and slums access to basic care basically doesn’t exist, except some NGOs that try to fill the gaps. We are pressing upon ministers of health and presidents of countries that they have the responsibility to progressively realise the right to health – a right most have committed to realising through international treaties, which means to have a functioning health system. However, we are not here to finger point, we are here to work with them. We have a ministerial leadership initiative working with four African countries and Nepal on financing for health equity, aid effectiveness and reproductive health.

With the support of various foundations I co-chair a health worker migration advisory council, which has ministers, experts and community leaders on it. Our focus is on African countries as the drain of doctors and nurses prevents their health systems from functioning. Another project we are involved in is studying three African countries and is proving that you don’t need fully qualified doctors and nurses to improve the health of individuals at local level, rather mid-level providers with proper training can effectively address a range of health issues such as maternal mortality which is a big problem in many countries. A lot of the language and approaches we are using may at first glance seem closer to mainstream development work, but what we bring is the added strong human rights grounding in accountability of governments, as well as focus on non-discrimination, participation in decision making and other principles, which form the foundation of the human rights framework. We’re making it clear that governments have responsibility, but we are not here to finger point and be rhetorical, we are here to work with them.

TW: You are known for advocating for countries to step up their commitments to poorer countries in order to meet the UN Millennium Development Goals. What effect do you think the global financial crisis will have on these?

MR: I am very worried even when I look at Ireland. They have had a good approach to aid and the aid budget is being cut in the context of very severe budgetary problems. I think it is going to be the same in other countries, just at the time when the stresses of the food crisis are hitting and the effects of the fuel crisis are still being felt. We tend to forget in richer parts of the world that population growth, which is unprecedented from 6.7 to an expected 9 billion in a very short space of time, is in the poorest countries. Apart from anything else they have to cope with that and when you have the undermining of values, which is corruption, then the wealth of a country is siphoned away. When officials wearing uniforms abuse their positions you shock young people, but then they become accustomed to believing that they have to work with the system in this way – it’s not acceptable. And then you have countries that should know better, undermining the rule of law and human rights and having double standards. We really need to have a strong civil society that insists governments stick to their standards and are accountable, tackle corruption and live up to human rights, environment and development obligations even in the midst of this difficult economic crisis. I feel that for too long these areas have worked in silos. We must work together respecting the separate mandates, but working much more effectively in a coherent people-centred way, linking with social movements and helping them to have more tools to hold governments and others accountable.

TW: There is a school of thought that globalisation equals unscrupulous multi-national corporations for whom the bottom line is the only guiding principle. To what extent is this the case?

MR: I’m slow to characterise globalisation as being necessarily negative. A globalisation of ideas, a globalisation of connecting people is part of this movement I am talking about – that people can use the internet, track abuses by corporations, governments and others and hold them to account. At the moment when we talk about globalisation we talk about economic globalisation by and large and that is weighted in favour of the rich countries. Power imbalances continue and so the poorer countries have not benefited from the potential of a more interconnected world. But there are opportunities in the context of globalisation. On the 16 October 2008, 116.9 million people stood up in a 24 hour period against poverty. That is a huge mobilisation and we can build on that strength, it’s the strength of numbers.

TW: Do you think that the growing awareness of corporate social responsibility and the birth of such voluntary initiatives as the UN Global Compact are making corporations see what role they can play in driving positive change?

MR: I think the UN Global Compact provides a useful framework through its 10 principles based on existing international standards including in the areas of human rights and transparency. But as we prepare to mark the 10th anniversary of the Global Compact in 2010, we need to take stock and draw out lessons and move this important initiative forward in a way that will address some of its shortcomings. We have ways of strengthening it and the board of the Global Compact has decided to have committees to look at specific issues. I chair the Human Rights Working Group and Huguette Labelle [TI chair] chairs the Anti-corruption Working Group. A labour working group has also been formed. That provides the beginnings of bringing good practices into a voluntary arrangement, which is what the Global Compact is.

I am interested in how we can ensure that the Global Compact also draws on the progress made through the mandate of John Ruggie as UN special representative on business and human rights. And I hope that over the next three years that mandate will continue to provide leadership and further clarify the duty of states to protect their people from violations by what we call non-state actors, which includes business, and the Human Rights Council accepting that all corporations big and small have the responsibility to respect all human rights and to make clear what that should mean in practice. It is more than just ‘do no harm’. You must find out what is the impact of your business. Are your activities contributing to or in direct violation of human rights? If you are bribing in poor countries and getting away with it, Europe in particular, you are not respecting human rights.

TW: One of the negative aspects of globalisation is an increase in human trafficking. What responsibility do you think transit countries have?

MR: Human trafficking is one of the most grievous and horrible abuses of human rights. I didn’t realise until I became UN High Commissioner for Human Rights just how pervasive it is. I still have an inch below my consciousness those I talked to in Cambodia and parts of Africa who had been trafficked. One girl I spoke to in Phnom Penh was pushed into a brothel and many months later rescued. I met her about nine months later and could still see the guilt in her eyes. I spoke to that guilt and said: ‘do not for one moment blame yourself. You are a wonderful young lady, a wonderful woman I deeply respect.’ That is what trafficking does.

The responsibility to address this terrible abuse is that of the sending, receiving and transit countries. Many of the countries which bear part of the responsibility are countries that don’t get named or blamed enough and need to be brought to book. When there is an economic downturn, trafficking in women and girls goes up so I am very fearful that we will see an increase in trafficking. I want Transparency International, the human rights community and all of those who want a fairer world to really focus much more on this issue.