interview of the month By Amber Poroznuk, Jesse Garcia

"The most serious corruption taking place in many African countries is taking place under the shroud of what they call national security. National security and the extractive industries have become the last refuge of grand corruption in Africa." John Githongo

John Githongo spent the week of 13-19 March giving evidence to the Kenya Anti-Corruption Commission and the Public Accounts Committee in London. He speaks now to two representatives of Transparency International.

1. In an article in the New York Times last Saturday, you are quoted as saying that the implications of public release of your dossier on the Anglo Leasing scandal are just beginning, that in fact only 30 percent has come out. What is still to come? Who will go down next and how high will it go?

Well, the point I was trying to make is that this particular scandal is only one of several that I now believe are under investigation by the anti-corruption authority. In fact, the Public Accounts Committee will hopefully be tabling its report in Parliament tomorrow [21 March 2006].

2. You have also stated that the Anglo Leasing deals under the Kibaki administration amount to 50 billion Kenyan Shillings (US$ 700 million). Is that still an accurate guess? How inflated would that make the contracts?

In my estimation, the inflation would be between 25 and 100%. However, here we are talking about transactions that stretch back to the previous administration, really from the middle of the year 2001 until the end of 2004; about US$ 700 million.

3. In your view, what opportunities has Kenya missed out on because of this?

The most important thing about these kinds of scandals is that they cause the general public to lose faith in their own institutions of democracy. It is even more damaging than the direct financial loss. As you know, Kenya is in the middle of a severe drought, and obviously people have said one of the connections that can be made is between the amount of money that may be being misappropriated and the drought and the way it is affecting Kenyans. However, I always assert that the biggest impact of these kinds of issues is usually on democratic institutions and causing people to lose faith in them.

4. You mentioned the drought. There are probably a lot of ways you can make real concrete equivalences with losses. Take, for example, the recent document from Transparency International's chapter in Kenya, "Living Large", which details the waste and abuse of public funds. They suggested that the equivalent of US$ 12 million wasted could have provided anti-retroviral treatment for an entire year for nearly 150,000 HIV/AIDS patients.

That is the truth about the matter, that these resources are fungible. If one looks at where these resources could have been better spent, one sees that the impact is actually very severe.

5. There are those who have equated your whistle blowing on the grand corruption and looting in the Kenyan government with treason. Former Cabinet minister Chris Murungaru claims in the East African Standard that your activities "bordered on spying on the Government of Kenya on behalf of the British government". What do you think of these allegations? Are you still worried about such charges? Does this hamper your ability to return to Kenya?

That is a calculation that I took, that this kind of charge would be made against me, and I am comfortable with that. I shall be returning home as soon as possible, but I don’t intend to stop this fight.

6. Kenya is a democratic country. Why should speaking out against the government be equated with treason?

The most serious corruption taking place in many African countries takes place under the shroud of what they call national security. National security and the extractive industries have become the last refuge of grand corruption in Africa. As corruption has slowly been removed from public procurement processes - for example roads and large infrastructure projects - the last little hole where corruption is hiding is in the area of so called "national security", which means that any whistle blower who causes malfeasance in that area can be very easily charged with treason.

7. You have recently spoken out against British citizens who were complicit in the Anglo Leasing scandal, for example, people living in the UK who helped set up ghost companies. What action should be taken against these people and who should be working on this? From what angle?

Ever since the publication of the Commission for Africa report, there has been a lot of political will in Britain to take action against these parties. What we found, when we were looking into corruption in Kenya, is that there were key players behind this who were able to move in and out of the UK with ease, to use British firms and lawyers to assist them, etc. And this is the kind of thing we are seeking assistance with.

8. Who should assist them? Who should be working on it?

The British government should, first of all, take up this issue as a matter of seriousness, which I think they have started to do. I think Transparency International can also play a very useful lobbying role. I know they are doing that at least with regard to the Defense Sector here [TI-UK is addressing this issue ]. I think there is a role to be played by both civil society and government.

9. There are voices that defend the Kibaki government by claiming that many of the contracts in question were in place before Kibaki came to power. How much do you believe that the government’s hands are tied due to contracts signed under Moi?

That’s rubbish. The issue is that some of these dodgy contracts were entered into by the previous administration, but there was something very unusual about the way we came to power. We assumed ownership of those contracts without asking any questions, without doing any due diligence. We entered into arrangements with individuals who we knew had a terrible record in terms of providing services to the government, who had been cited repeatedly in government documents as being corrupt, public accounts committee reports, reports of the comptroller, the notary general.

That is no excuse. It is like blaming Africa’s problems on colonialism. Colonialism has something to do with it, yes, but that is no longer an excuse which holds much water.

10. So there would have been no legal constraints that would have kept the Kibaki government from breaking these contracts on the ground that they were corrupt?

No, there are no legal constraints. If you investigate something and find it to be corrupt, then it is very easy to be able to escape it. This is number one. Number two, the US$ 12 million which had been returned when the investigations into Anglo Leasing started - that was money which was supposedly based on secure contracts. So why did those people pay back the money? They should have taken them to court. If someone has given you a large contract, you don't just give the money back.

11. In early March, it was reported that a special elite, rapid response unit of the Kenyan police, the Kanga squad, shut down a Kenyan television station, disabled a printing press and burned thousands of newspapers in a midnight raid. The trigger was ostensibly an article claiming that Kibaki had secretly met with an opposition leader. How do you explain this behaviour? Did your dossier do anything to inflame the situation?

I don’t know whether my dossier had anything to do with it. What I do know is that it was outrageous. If it wasn’t so serious in its implications for Kenyan democratisation, freedom of the press and freedom of expression, this would have been a completely hilarious, comical kind of event, because it was carried out in the most ridiculous fashion. But of course its implications for freedom of the press in Kenya are very serious. We may be in a situation where one arm of the state does not know what the other is doing, and I think this is perhaps part of the problem.

12. With coalition government, like the Rainbow Coalition, beholden to so many stakeholders, can it realistically fight corruption in an environment like Kenya?

It depends on whether the top leadership of the administration wants to base the coalition primarily on a coming together of the ethnic interests of the members of the elite. Or whether they want to unite people around a genuine reform agenda, and use that reform agenda to drive politics forward and to fight corruption. In other words, you use the fight against corruption to unite, rather than to divide. Even the most corrupt person would not say in public that they support corruption, and if you have a generalised anti-corruption campaign, what you will find is that even in a coalition, it will have the impact of cleaning out the coalition.

13. So you wouldn’t say they were necessarily at a disadvantage, compared to a unified group?

No, (laughs ) we had a very corrupt government under a one party state. It’s just an excuse. It’s complicated. Coalition is complicated. But that is no excuse.

14. What kind of special interests hamstring the Kenyan government? Who is the government serving with its questionable activities?

The excuse given for a lot of these issues is the need to raise money for political party finance. That is the most commonly used excuse, but because there is no transparency about it. You can’t tell whether this is going into people’s pockets, or whether it actually funds parties.

15. But of course, you were a part of the government; you had a role in the government a few years ago. Knowing what you do now, looking back, do you think it was realistic to have taken on the tasks that you did when you joined the government?

It is not a question I could even begin to answer unless I had tried it. I think one has to have high expectations: one has to have aspirations to do that kind of job.

16. In that vein, obviously the current government is not proving effective at tackling the problems it has. What would a Kenyan government look like that was able to successfully tackle embedded corruption? What features would it have that it currently does not have?

The most important thing would be top level commitment on the part of the heads of state in the fight against corruption.

17. In a related question, where do you hope the country will be in five years?

In five years' time, I would hope to see Kenya in the middle of a united East Africa, as one key element of that united East Africa, providing the engine for economic growth for the entire integrated region.

18. In some ways it has been a shock to the anti-corruption movement that some of the initial approaches to fighting graft seem to have not been so effective. Do you think Transparency International is too technocratic in nature? That we ignore the human aspect of corruption?

I think the key thing that we have to re-think in TI is the philosophy of not naming names, especially in cases of egregious corruption. It is a big challenge and will require a lot of analysis and so on, but I think the technocratic component is very important. But more can be done in terms of direct advocacy.

19. Just following up on that, what kind of activities would you like to see in place to help resolve issues more quickly? Is there anything else you can add where TI or other institutions would be able to provide support to people like you who are willing to expose corruption?

To start with, I think for Transparency International to have a designated small team in Berlin with a capacity to do research in the West, that would assist people who are looking into corruption in the developing world, and be able to pick up a phone and check a company’s register in Lichtenstein to see if a company exists or not, that is very important. However, TI does not conduct investigations. There is a broader question there of mandate, which perhaps can be examined along with other broad governance issues that TI has been looking at.

20. To change tracks a little bit, I would like to ask you about aid and corruption. There are those who say that exposing corruption supports the argument that governments and donors should withhold aid, as it will only find its way into the pockets of corrupt leaders. So exposing corruption in Kenya could have negative ramifications in terms of aid and perceptions, not just for Kenya, but also for the rest of Africa. What do you believe exposing the Anglo Leasing scandal has done for the rest of Africa?

I believe it has introduced political accountability into Kenyan political culture, number one. Number two, I am not enthusiastic about the development cooperation partners who, by giving that argument, sometimes are essentially arguing for a cover up of corruption, so they can maintain higher levels of lending to a country. I think that is for the people of a country to decide. If corruption is not important to people within a country, then they will not respond enthusiastically or with outreach when instances of corruption are raised.

21. What do you think of donors or donor governments who would make this claim?

I think that for donor governments, the key challenge is how to remain effectively engaged. I don’t think it is possible at all to be effectively engaged in a situation where you still have high levels of corruption. The challenge is to understand that, in a country, you have various stakeholders, whether it is civil society, the media, the government, etc. and one cannot get a holistic picture of a situation of corruption without engaging with all those stakeholders.

22. In a New York Times article from 18 March 2006 you were likened to an African Lenin. That is a powerful image. I am curious to know what went through your mind when you read that?

Well, you know, I am a traitor or a Lenin, I don’t know which is better of the two. You know the point I was trying to make in that interview is that I know that what I have done has caused some problems for me, and for many other people. But I think it needed to be done. You can’t keep secrets ,and you can’t keep secrets forever. And it has implications, it has repercussions, and I am a piece of that.

23. We’ve talked about a couple of comparisons, names, labels that have been attached to you. Who would you liken yourself to? Do you have mentors or idols you aspire to be like?

I don’t like comparing myself to anyone because it would demean the other person. So I leave it alone. The New York Times chose Lenin - I will have to read more about Lenin and make up my mind if this is a comparison I should use more regularly.

24. Do you have any people you would describe as heroes or role models?

I have always been a great admirer of people like Dr. Peter Eigen, and what he has done - leaving the World Bank, starting TI. Now, more than ten years later, look at it. It has become the premiere anti-corruption agency in the world, pushed corruption into the centre of the global development agenda, and I know it hasn’t been easy. So, I am very lucky to know a lot of people I have admiration for. I have seen them face difficult things and just push on and do it.

25. We interviewed Simon Channing-Williams, producer of The Constant Gardener earlier this month, and he told us about the Constant Gardener Trust, a charity which was set up following the release of the film. What do you think of the Trust and the work that it has done? What is your role with the Trust?

I think it is a wonderful idea: this is really, really special. Film companies usually come into exotic locations in Africa. They change the surroundings, they make their film and then they disappear. This is a very special initiative, a special side of the film industry that has decided to remain engaged in Kenya to reduce poverty. And this is something that should really be able to make things work, and to get others to follow this example.

26. You originally left Kenya fearing for your personal safety, after receiving warnings from colleagues and ministers that pursuing your line of questioning on the Anglo Leasing scandal was dangerous. Do you still feel unsafe? Are you still receiving death threats?

No, it goes up and down. I feel reasonably secure.

27. One last question. We have been hearing a lot of rumours - are there any plans in the works for a 2007 presidential campaign?

No, (laughs) I am a simple student at St. Anthony’s College.